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Ne1

Again, I'm not necessarily the person to start this conversation, because it's not something I know much about. What I do know is that there is a lot of information related to nutrition and the disease of alcoholism/addiction and that very few people are aware of it. 

I will tell you that I do not believe in diets at all. Meaning, I believe in nutrition, not in dieting in the conventional sense of the word. I am also very sensitive to the fact that I know many, many of us who have alcoholism may also have eating disorders. I trust that this discussion does not turn into ways to "lose weight fast" or anything even remotely similar to what we see/hear/read in popular media. I know some of the people who are interested in sharing information about nutrition would never perpetuate that kind of information, but want to be clear about what I envision for this thread, and hope you all agree. 

I look forward to hearing from people who DO know more about this and are willing to take the time to share it with all of us. 

Thank you! :75_EmoticonsHDcom:

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NS

Thank you for starting the thread, Ne.  My goal is health and well-being; some people will experience weight loss as a pleasant side effect, if they have weight to lose.

I posted this elsewhere today but it is more appropriate for this thread:

I came across an interesting article yesterday about how we've managed to get so much sugar into our lives: You will need register or log in to read this content

It would be the brave soul who tried to give up all 3 at once but it might be pretty effective.  

Edited by NS
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phoenix

Ooh, where to start. Firstly diet means everything you regularly eat and drink, it doesn't specifically mean weight loss.

There's thought to be a link between sugar sensitivity and alcoholism or addiction. I also noticed that in my bulimia I behaved with food, in much the same way I did with alcohol - and that lead me to really look at how I am, how I cope with the world and use that to help me in my AF recovery towards personal growth, as well as getting rid of that monkey on my back. An understanding of nutrition has been a real tool in my progress. I'm also signed up for a nutrition course later on in the year, from an eating disorder slant - however there are various degrees of EDs, so can apply to a lot of people.

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Molly78

I noticed that the less I drank, the more likely I was to "treat" myself to sweeties - a feature of the addictive personality I guess, more of the "you deserve it" line of thinking. Especially when I was at work & things were a bit pressurised. No chance of a vodka & tonic, but a bag of Haribos really hit the spot! People in the UK will know what Haribos are - not sure you have them in the US, they are packed with sugar, colourings & no doubt other toxins.

This craving has reduced the longer I am on baclofen - plus recognising it as a sort of cross addiction made it easier to resist.

 

I am also recently rethinking my "fatist" attitude. I have always found it easy to maintain a healthy weight, so like many people I was judgemental towards the overweight, assuming "lack of willpower".......hello? Isn't that what the world in general thinks is the problem for us alkies? A prof in the UK has recently accused us of just that, holding fat people to be responsible for their weight when actually "it's mostly down to genes". That makes a lot of sense, we all know people who are overweight yet claim to eat very little - so maybe they are telling the truth. I need to adjust my thinking here.

Edited by Molly78
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phoenix
1 hour ago, Molly78 said:

I noticed that the less I drank, the more likely I was to "treat" myself to sweeties - a feature of the addictive personality I guess, more of the "you deserve it" line of thinking. Especially when I was at work & things were a bit pressurised. No chance of a vodka & tonic, but a bag of Haribos really hit the spot! People in the UK will know what Haribos are - not sure you have them in the US, they are packed with sugar, colourings & no doubt other toxins.

This craving has reduced the longer I am on baclofen - plus recognising it as a sort of cross addiction made it easier to resist.

 

I am also recently rethinking my "fatist" attitude. I have always found it easy to maintain a healthy weight, so like many people I was judgemental towards the overweight, assuming "lack of willpower".......hello? Isn't that what the world in general thinks is the problem for us alkies? A prof in the UK has recently accused us of just that, holding fat people to be responsible for their weight when actually "it's mostly down to genes". That makes a lot of sense, we all know people who are overweight yet claim to eat very little - so maybe they are telling the truth. I need to adjust my thinking here.

Molly

 

I'm also training in the field of fitness and nutrition, at the end of the day if a person is overweight it's because they have eaten more than their body needs. Now the reasons for eating more than they need can be complex, but believe me the basic science is always the same.

 

I find that when you actually truly look at what overweight people eat, honestly, they are almost always eating enough to maintain or gain weight. Same with those slim people who say they eat loads - their intake will be almost definitely be under or equal to their metabolic rate.

 

Not too long ago there was a documentary called 'Secret Eaters', which showed just how much some overweight 'I don't eat very much' people  do eat. Some don't include lattes, the 'occasional' cake or biscuit here, and of course you can gain weight eating so called healthy food.

Genetics I believe can influence weight gain, as much as environment and nutritional history. It's a complex area and the human body is designed to chase down high energy foods, salt, fat, carbs in order to motivate it to actually fight for survival. The current unnatural situation of easy access to a surplus of energy dense food, combined with very low activity levels is meaning that it's easy to overeat.

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Ne1
22 hours ago, NS said:

I came across an interesting article yesterday about how we've managed to get so much sugar into our lives: You will need register or log in to read this content

It would be the brave soul who tried to give up all 3 at once but it might be pretty effective.  

I have to admit that I've only skimmed the article. Hard for me to focus on EOMA when my husband is off, which he was yesterday and is today. He resents (and for pretty good reason) my online time when he's home...

Anyway, it's not the first thing I've read about sugar being the culprit for all that ails us (almost literally). But as Molly mentioned below, it's a real struggle for me not to replace booze with sugar when I quit drinking. (I mean, booze is just that, right? SUGAR GALORE!) More on that from me later. 

I am very interested in managing my sugar intake as I quit drinking. As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm not giving up smoking anytime soon. Regardless of what anyone says or the research or anything. But sugar? I need to figure out how to manage our diet in relation to that, not just the obvious stuff, but the simple carbs that come so easily to mind when thinking about a meal. I hope you'll keep posting and offering info about this stuff. 

3 hours ago, phoenix said:

Ooh, where to start. Firstly diet means everything you regularly eat and drink, it doesn't specifically mean weight loss.

I know. But I was referring specifically to the way the word "diet" is portrayed in popular media. 

There is a direct correlation between sugar-craving and alcoholism. Can't remember where I read it, but the research is out there somewhere. 

2 hours ago, Molly78 said:

I noticed that the less I drank, the more likely I was to "treat" myself to sweeties - a feature of the addictive personality I guess, more of the "you deserve it" line of thinking...

For me, it's a direct replacement of the craving for booze. When I quit drinking the first time in 2011, I ate peanut MnMs all day, everyday. (Justifying that at least there was a little bit of nutrition in the peanuts. ha. I'm kidding of course.) 

Also, to your point about being judgmental about people who are fat, I'm "genetically" thin and haven't had issues with my weight, ever, other than the fact that I put on weight when I hit middle-age. That said, the research into the fat-epidemic has made clear that there are many, many causes and it's nearly impossible to blame it on one specific thing. Very interesting stuff...Not that I have any particular interest in it--my interests are taken up by booze research and treatment. But I look forward to hearing more about this from people on this thread...

42 minutes ago, phoenix said:

Genetics I believe can influence weight gain, as much as environment and nutritional history. 

Don't forget medications! Some antidepressants and antipsychotics, even the newer versions, cause almost immediate and substantial weight gain. I can personally attest to that fact, unfortunately. Still, it was a choice between being so depressed that I could barely get out of bed or getting well and then dealing with the weight. I chose getting well over the extra weight. Now that I'm off the meds, and no longer have Major Depression, it's time to focus on the weight. (Which, for the first time in my life, is actually in the unhealthy range. Very disconcerting...And there are many other ramifications, too. Like finding clothes to wear and feeling okay in my body. New experiences that are not at all pleasant.)

Went to the gym yesterday, though! Woot!

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phoenix
22 minutes ago, Ne1 said:

I have to admit that I've only skimmed the article. Hard for me to focus on EOMA when my husband is off, which he was yesterday and is today. He resents (and for pretty good reason) my online time when he's home...

Anyway, it's not the first thing I've read about sugar being the culprit for all that ails us (almost literally). But as Molly mentioned below, it's a real struggle for me not to replace booze with sugar when I quit drinking. (I mean, booze is just that, right? SUGAR GALORE!) More on that from me later. 

I am very interested in managing my sugar intake as I quit drinking. As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm not giving up smoking anytime soon. Regardless of what anyone says or the research or anything. But sugar? I need to figure out how to manage our diet in relation to that, not just the obvious stuff, but the simple carbs that come so easily to mind when thinking about a meal. I hope you'll keep posting and offering info about this stuff. 

I know. But I was referring specifically to the way the word "diet" is portrayed in popular media. 

There is a direct correlation between sugar-craving and alcoholism. Can't remember where I read it, but the research is out there somewhere. 

For me, it's a direct replacement of the craving for booze. When I quit drinking the first time in 2011, I ate peanut MnMs all day, everyday. (Justifying that at least there was a little bit of nutrition in the peanuts. ha. I'm kidding of course.) 

Also, to your point about being judgmental about people who are fat, I'm "genetically" thin and haven't had issues with my weight, ever, other than the fact that I put on weight when I hit middle-age. That said, the research into the fat-epidemic has made clear that there are many, many causes and it's nearly impossible to blame it on one specific thing. Very interesting stuff...Not that I have any particular interest in it--my interests are taken up by booze research and treatment. But I look forward to hearing more about this from people on this thread...

Don't forget medications! Some antidepressants and antipsychotics, even the newer versions, cause almost immediate and substantial weight gain. I can personally attest to that fact, unfortunately. Still, it was a choice between being so depressed that I could barely get out of bed or getting well and then dealing with the weight. I chose getting well over the extra weight. Now that I'm off the meds, and no longer have Major Depression, it's time to focus on the weight. (Which, for the first time in my life, is actually in the unhealthy range. Very disconcerting...And there are many other ramifications, too. Like finding clothes to wear and feeling okay in my body. New experiences that are not at all pleasant.)

Went to the gym yesterday, though! Woot!

Yes, but you still need to be eating more than your body requires. In the case of antipsychotics, there could be a reduction in metabolic rate, and activity - because they slow you down, energy expenditure is less, and I would also guess eating to fill the inactive time which becomes available. The pill doesn't suddenly cause the muscle or fat tissue to suddenly appear out of nowhere. It can however skew a persons behaviour, and hormones into a weight change.

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Molly78

OK, common sense & my own professional training tells me that you are fat because you eat too much, I was just trying to be politically correct there (always a mistake). The question is - what makes fat people eat too much?  Appetite regulation may have a genetic basis, don't you think? In much the same way as alcoholics have a genetic tendency to drink too much?

Anti-psychotics actually stimulate the appetite, people taking them have to work hard to resist eating more, which is diifficult when you are feeling low & depressed anyway.

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phoenix

Yes this is what I'm interested in. I used food to alter how I felt, I always felt empty and after a lot of searching realised that for me, it (and probably my alcoholism + other behaviours) were about a mixture of things. Some psychological, some genetic, some stress passed down through generations. 

 

Hunger is also influenced by certain hormones, understanding those and how to influence them could also be helpful. I know sugar drives my cravings - and interestingly a sugar binge would often precede an alcohol session. 

By the way before I got to the bottom of my own problem I could eat 6000kcals per day, day after day with or without purging,  which is physically painfully, well over 3 x my daily requirements, and have done. My weight yo-yod as I would get to a point where I felt my body wasn't my own..... Lose the weight, rebound again - and the desire to eat was there throughout,  just as the desire to drink was always there whilst trying to get alcohol sorted. I often combined drinking with eating, booze plus 2 takeaways. Then more food later. 

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phoenix

I think I've gone a bit off topic, on my own agenda. 

I'd like to come back to the OP because I think that nutrition does have a place to play in recovery. 

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NS

We've all believed for years that weight gain is due to expending less energy than we consume. That would makes sense if the form of the energy didn't matter,  but it does. 100 calories from fat affects us differently than 100 from carbs or 100 from protein. As odd as it seems,  carbs drive fat gain more than protein does and dietary fat, calorie for calorie, is the least likely to cause body fat gain.  You will need register or log in to read this content

A person who is very overweight can be consuming very little food but if the type of food and frequency of intake keep insulin high (e.g. High-carb, low-fat meals and snacks throughout the day), the body fat cannot be accessed because of the signals to the body it constantly receives from the insulin (store incoming food as fat and don't break down for energy any fat you already have). The person actually is starving, despite what it looks like to others.  Imagine how confusing and frustrating it is for them to be doing everything "right" but to still be fat and judged to be lazy, self-indulgent liars.  They aren't - they are stuck in a metabolic trap set by our current dietary advice.  Certain medications also change the body's hormonal balance, setting up weight gain that is essentially independent of calorie intake.

Two physicians have great websites concerning weight loss but more importantly, metabolic health and disease prevention:

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Ne, you mentioned that your triglycerides are way too high. They come not from dietary fat but from carbs. You might find that a low-carb, high-fat diet would help with that, which can be a serious problem, and with the added weight you want to drop.

 

 

 

 

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phoenix

Carbs are a much more efficient form of energy than other macro nutrients, and do drive metabolic responses. A low carb, but not necessarily zero carb approach can really help with weight management. 

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Ne1

Thanks so much, NS, for the information and the links. I'll take a look at them later. 

My friend also gave me a link to a medical doctor who does videos that are generally 5 minutes or less and solely based on scientific research. I'm eager to take a look at those, too. I think this is his site, but will have to verify it's the one she told me about when I go into the other room. (Too far a distance at the moment. ha!) You will need register or log in to read this content

He has a book called, How Not to Die. She hates the title but likes the info in the book. He writes things like, "How Not to Die from Heart Disease" and etc...

But my focus is, of course, managing my diet in relationship with quitting drinking, and with losing weight. As I've mentioned, I am, for the first time in my life, literally overweight. (Not just by my standards, but according to the doctor. :( ) It's directly due to the medications I was taking, since nothing before or since, has changed. I can guarantee you that my caloric intake was not significantly greater after I started the medication. In fact, I have been drinking a lot less over the last couple of weeks/months. And definitely not eating so much more that it would account for the amount of weight gain in the amount of time. But I'm off the meds now and looking to manage craving, particularly in terms of sugar, as I stop drinking...

That said, as I mentioned, I don't "diet". Don't know how and don't really want to learn...Meaning I need a healthy approach to eating that isn't a particularly restrictive diet, per se. I don't mind cutting down on simple carbs, for instance, but cutting out carbs altogether isn't going to work in this household. Ditto anything that is restrictive in an effort to find out food allergies. (That may be on the table at some point, as I feel strongly that my husband in particular has some issues with food allergies, but as Felina said, it's on the to-do list for "some day".) Keep in mind, my husband is a chef. We don't eat fancy every night, but often have a sauce (yikes!) and there is no way he's going to dramatically change his diet anytime soon. (Also keep in mind that we don't eat processed food, for the most part, and we don't eat a lot of "junk" that may be in the normal American diet. No fast food. The occasional gourmet potato chip. And for me, chocolate, chocolate, chocolate when I'm not drinking...) 

Anyway, that's my story and why I'm so interested in this. I'm going to check out those links, NS. If you have a nutrition plan you can recommend that fits my very demanding qualifications, then I'd love to read about it. In the meantime, I'm going to resort back to what I used once before when I was losing weight, which was lots of low fat animal protein (chicken and fish) and tons of veggies. That's all I know about anything! 

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phoenix

Your requirements don't sound demanding, I also don't ever go zero carb, it makes me feel like rubbish. It's the type of carbs, and amounts that tend to make the difference(and of course everything else!). Fats I find satieting, but can be easy to overeat, sugars (for me) best avoided. Yeah when not drinking the sugar cravings/substitute. It could be that the chocolate or your portions are making up the excess, and driving desire for the same foods. I couldn't understand why I was still overweight when I was high-dose-baclofening and was managing to not drink as much(because it only made the terrible SEs ten time worse). I thought I was eating ok but it wasn't shifting, then I brought in portion control, got rid of the 'occasional' chocolate/sweet/pizza thing, exercised consistently and sure enough my weight reduced.

Edited by phoenix
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Ne1

Definitely going to take me a while to get to reading all the information and thinking about how and in what way to change our food intake...

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bleep
On 9/4/2016 at 1:29 PM, Molly78 said:

"...holding fat people to be responsible for their weight when actually "it's mostly down to genes". That makes a lot of sense, we all know people who are overweight yet claim to eat very little - so maybe they are telling the truth. I need to adjust my thinking here.

and blame their parents.

 

I was discussing this (the entire thread, not the quote) in a fair amount of detail with L0op a while back, and he was a big believer in the macro composition of your diet. Clearly the man knew something that not many do. I've tried on and off to stick to something similar, not to lose weight, but to get in shape, but just find that it's a drag. I am not well-known for my iron will. Hardly the most helpful comment I know, but strangely it seems to take a while to ease back into forumness mode.

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Molly78

"and blame their parents".

I didn't mean to imply their parents were to blame for obesity. Or am I misreading your post, Bleep?

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Ne1
On 4/13/2016 at 9:02 AM, bleep said:

and blame their parents.

...I've tried on and off to stick to something similar, not to lose weight, but to get in shape, but just find that it's a drag. I am not well-known for my iron will. 

BAHAHAHA!

You may think you're out of touch with the "forum world", bleep, but it's great to have you back. Literally laughed out loud about the parents. 

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phoenix

Bleep, I bet you had strong will power when you were drinking ;-)

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NS

Finally made it back in to this website after being locked out and unable to change my PW.  It looks like it is going strong - congratulations!

Have you found an eating plan that's working for you, Ne?  The anti-sugar thing has been making it into the popular press lately. I think things will be changing (for the better) over the next few years, which will be good for all of us.

 

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SKendall

Oh good, NS is in the building.  I was diagnosed with Chron's disease about a month ago and my gastro appt. is 3 months out.  Because my husband had heart disease and super skinny we ate a very healthy diet.  I have googled a suggested diet from the Mayo clinic whilst I await for my appt.  I am just so darned fatigued, and I'll be moving in a month and after 10 minutes of packing I am exhausted.  However, my point is that since my separation I've been relying on Lean Cuisine too much and at one time I would be too embarrassed to have a frozen dinner in my shopping basket, but spinal nerve pain is hell and I wasn't able to stand.  I would sometimes roast root veggies, but not much more.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions or knowledge on how to help this?  I am taking B12, Vitamind D. etc.

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Felina

@SKendall please look into the paleo diet, especially the Autoimmune Protocol. Basically, you eliminate all inflammatory foods, even normally benign-sounding ingredients such as beans and grains. It's mostly meat, fish, fruits and vegetables. There are a TON of resources on the web for this approach.

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NS

Hi, Skendall. I agree with Felina that an anti-inflammatory diet could help you. Here's a starting point: You will need register or log in to read this content

In the short run, simply avoiding grains (especially gluten-containing), sugar, dairy, and industrial seed oils (corn, soy, canola) could make a big difference. That pretty much eliminates all processed foods but you can eat plain whole foods, without too much preparation. It might seem a little boring but worth it if you feel better!

All the best, NS

Edited by NS
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Ne1

My pDoc suggested I start an anti-inflammatory diet, as well. Did I mention that here? 

I think we're going to do the Whole30 or similar. 

My diet is pro-inflammatory. :-/ Cereal for breakfast, cheese for snack, sandwich (if I eat) and a carb or two with dinner every night! ha!

We're going to start on Wednesday with some baby steps. Like no grains...

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Felina

That will be SO good for you! The Whole 30 is excellent. There are so many resources for it too! Also read Mark's Daily Apple - he is a treasure trove of information on anti-inflammatory diets, and he backs everything up with links to studies.

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