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Mentium

Another Naltrexone question

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Mentium

I've looked this up on google with no luck, so I thought I'd see if anyone here had any thoughts on the following.

Awaiting  the arrival of my first batch of Nal and it occurred to me that it messes around with one's mood brain chemistry and in particular as I understand it serotonin related mechanisms. 

I take an anti depressant and have done for some years. Anyway I was wondering if Nal might interfere with it in some way. 

Any thoughts?

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StuckinLA

I could be completely wrong about this, but I thought nal worked more on dopamine than serotonin. Please, others join in and correct me if I'm spouting nonsense. 

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Mentium

I'm no expert either and I may well be confused about brain chemistry areas that have no relationship one with the other. I should perhaps read up a bit more! However I know there are some very knowledgeable people here r.e this subject.

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StuckinLA

Hope these help:

 

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That second one has its own website and a free sample:

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EDIT: Sorry, I try not to link to Amazon anymore, but obviously you can get them there, too.

Edited by StuckinLA

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Mentium

Thanks - I have the book. I am probably misguided on this. My starting point was that if opioid receptors are knocked out by Naltrexone, then perhaps it is hard to get pleasure from anything much while taking it. I then wondered if somehow it might interfere with the brain chemistry that moderates mood. I'm probably just displaying my ignorance. Will dig around a bit more.

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phoenix

Naltrexone works on Endorphins, not serotonin.

Endorphins are the body's natural opions - naltrexone blocks opiod receptors, which means Endorphins and other opiods such as codeine, morphine etc are also blocked which is why nal users carry a card with them explaining how pain relief should be administered in the case of emergency. The cards are usually found in the box the meds arrive in, if not you can type up your own.

 

I though you'd read part of Dr Eskapa's book?

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phoenix
8 hours ago, Mentium said:

Thanks - I have the book. I am probably misguided on this. My starting point was that if opioid receptors are knocked out by Naltrexone, then perhaps it is hard to get pleasure from anything much while taking it. I then wondered if somehow it might interfere with the brain chemistry that moderates mood. I'm probably just displaying my ignorance. Will dig around a bit more.

You can still obtain pleasure, AF days when/if possible are recommended to let you do this and to be honest my alcohol intake made my life so intolerable, so unpleasurable that reduced intake had a much bigger effect on my moods and life enjoyment than Nal had inhibiting it. It was only once I really reduced my intake did I realise that nal was affecting my mood and I then used that as a motivator to have more and more AF days and not to drink 3-4 days in a row - when you don't drink you don't need to take nal.

If alcohol is affecting your life to the point where it's causing problems and you are considering TSM I'd suggest that a slight flatness is worth it the over all benefits of reduction in alcohol intake. Alcohol is also a depressant in it's own right and I'd argue that it's effect on mood probably far surpasses most other meds/drugs certainly that of Nal. To be able to drink without being sick the following day, not having to take unpaid days off work, being able to join in with life and not drinking dangerously was definitely worth a flat mood!

A common concern is that it spoils exercise for those who are into their training, once again the reduction in alcohol did more for my training than the offset mood affected it. At the time my priority was getting the booze under control, if it meant hating exercise I'd do it, luckily it helped me train better.

Edited by phoenix
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Mentium

Thanks for a really helpful response. As it happens I go to the gym three or four times a week (I'm not sure I would call it 'training') and it really helps me with the impact of the booze. The 'frazzled' anxious state of mind most of my days tend to be are much improved by an hour in the gym. But if I have to sacrifice that, as well as other pleasures for a while in order to benefit in the longer term I think I can and will. I have tried so many times and in so many ways and I mean to beat this one way or another.

Thanks again. Hoping my Naltrexone will arrive soon.

As an aside I have been very gradually reducing my consumption over a couple of months but it is a struggle and of course contrary to the Sinclair approach. I have been feeling marginally better though.

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bleep
4 hours ago, phoenix said:

... I'd argue that it's effect on mood probably far surpasses most other meds/drugs certainly that of Nal. To be able to drink without being sick the following day, not having to take unpaid days off work, being able to join in with life and not drinking dangerously was definitely worth a flat mood!

 

...to be able to join in with life...

 

Nail on the proverbial head. Direct hit.

 

Anything is worth that. To be sidelined by booze, and shitty habits caused by a chemical addiction not entirely recognized by the world yet just fucking sucks. What's worse, to be fooled by the same fucking problem to believe that you are choosing this route, consciously, and with malice aforethought, despite everything that has happened... it beggars the mind. There are few crueler fates. What luck to find a solution, in whatever form. Glorious times.

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Molly78
5 hours ago, bleep said:

 

 To be sidelined by booze, and shitty habits caused by a chemical addiction not entirely recognized by the world yet just fucking sucks. What's worse, to be fooled by the same fucking problem to believe that you are choosing this route, consciously, and with malice aforethought, despite everything that has happened... it beggars the mind. There are few crueler fates. What luck to find a solution, in whatever form. Glorious times.

I think I should print out that quotation & frame it. It just epitomises the alcoholic's dilemma, in a world that STILL doesn'tfully recognise addiction as a disease.

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phoenix
17 hours ago, Mentium said:

Thanks for a really helpful response. As it happens I go to the gym three or four times a week (I'm not sure I would call it 'training') and it really helps me with the impact of the booze. The 'frazzled' anxious state of mind most of my days tend to be are much improved by an hour in the gym. But if I have to sacrifice that, as well as other pleasures for a while in order to benefit in the longer term I think I can and will. I have tried so many times and in so many ways and I mean to beat this one way or another.

Thanks again. Hoping my Naltrexone will arrive soon.

As an aside I have been very gradually reducing my consumption over a couple of months but it is a struggle and of course contrary to the Sinclair approach. I have been feeling marginally better though.

Trust me your gym sessions won't be impacted.

You may need patience, whatever you do don't drink without it - whilst many things in the book are inaccurate, the graph showing the rats readdiction I am convinced, backed up by anecdotal stuff from people who tried this, that readdiction/reversal is very rapid. Not unlike some of the stuff already known about addiction in the first place.

Whilst on TSM if you feel like drinking less, there is nothing to say you cannot - I drank as I felt, there were times when I really wanted to reduce, it didn't seem to do me any harm.

 

My advice is don't over think, just take it, keep taking it and see what happens.

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Mentium
2 hours ago, phoenix said:

Trust me your gym sessions won't be impacted.

You may need patience, whatever you do don't drink without it - whilst many things in the book are inaccurate, the graph showing the rats readdiction I am convinced, backed up by anecdotal stuff from people who tried this, that readdiction/reversal is very rapid. Not unlike some of the stuff already known about addiction in the first place.

Whilst on TSM if you feel like drinking less, there is nothing to say you cannot - I drank as I felt, there were times when I really wanted to reduce, it didn't seem to do me any harm.

 

My advice is don't over think, just take it, keep taking it and see what happens.

Thanks again, though I am slightly alarmed by your comment 'many things in the book are inaccurate'! Would you care to elaborate a bit?

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Nicnak

Mentium,you know Joanna from patient.info runs c3 Europe which is all about TSM

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phoenix
3 hours ago, Mentium said:

Thanks again, though I am slightly alarmed by your comment 'many things in the book are inaccurate'! Would you care to elaborate a bit?

The book claims a cure time of 3 months, that was for people taking part in the clinical trial.

My experience and that of others is that it can take from 1 day to over 12 months.

 

For me I noticed a difference immediately, my drinking per session halved overnight, it took betwen 4 and 5 months for me to reach what is sometimes known as cure point - that's when alcohol no longer has any hold over you, you no longer have that burning craving.  You can take it or leave it. I know of people who took shorter, and others who took longer. Each person is different.

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Ne1
On 7/8/2016 at 0:59 PM, Mentium said:

Thanks again, though I am slightly alarmed by your comment 'many things in the book are inaccurate'! Would you care to elaborate a bit?

(If you guys can't tell, I'm catching up on all the threads and posts that I've missed over the last couple of weeks. Hence the late replies. Honestly, I'm so thankful that I'm taking the time to read all the stuff I missed, because some of it is absolutely brilliant. Like Phoenix's and bleep's posts here. And also your questions, Menty. Really good stuff on this forum. I'm so thrilled and happy for us to have a happy home! :) ) 

There is a lot in the book that hasn't held up after the test of time, Menty. Some of the science is flaky, some of it is just downright false (like the 'cure' rate of 70% or whatever they claim it to be). But not to worry! There is reasonable science that backs up the claim that for some people, naltrexone is the holy grail of treatment and recovery medications. You'll just have to find out for yourself if you're one of them. Also, there's no reason to depend on just one approach, either. 

Bleep is right. This is a time of transition and we're on the cutting edge of what the future of alcoholism treatment will look like in (hopefully) just a little while. 

I know you've started a thread to journal your journey with nal and TSM, but I just couldn't refrain from commenting on this thread because the questions and answers are so good. I'm very excited for you! 

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phoenix
3 hours ago, Ne1 said:

(If you guys can't tell, I'm catching up on all the threads and posts that I've missed over the last couple of weeks. Hence the late replies. Honestly, I'm so thankful that I'm taking the time to read all the stuff I missed, because some of it is absolutely brilliant. Like Phoenix's and bleep's posts here. And also your questions, Menty. Really good stuff on this forum. I'm so thrilled and happy for us to have a happy home! :) ) 

There is a lot in the book that hasn't held up after the test of time, Menty. Some of the science is flaky, some of it is just downright false (like the 'cure' rate of 70% or whatever they claim it to be). But not to worry! There is reasonable science that backs up the claim that for some people, naltrexone is the holy grail of treatment and recovery medications. You'll just have to find out for yourself if you're one of them. Also, there's no reason to depend on just one approach, either. 

Bleep is right. This is a time of transition and we're on the cutting edge of what the future of alcoholism treatment will look like in (hopefully) just a little while. 

I know you've started a thread to journal your journey with nal and TSM, but I just couldn't refrain from commenting on this thread because the questions and answers are so good. I'm very excited for you! 

Is Mentium, have you been a member of MWO Mentium? The reason I ask is that I'm certain I've posted quite a lot of TSM information on that forum, you may have to dig it out but it is there in the meds section. There's also C3 and Sinclair Method.net (the latter does seem to be having a few issues). C3 also provide a free downloadable book all about it, I've not read it because it looks like an updated version of the old Eskapa book, which gave me a basic grounding.

I started with very little knowledge, I was however determined to sort my alcoholism out and I took the pill religiously. I also had a huge incentive, hugely motivated to cut my drinking down which I believe made me break my own habits. Some people do something similar alongside TSM, others wait until it totally allows them to forget alcohol. My learning has been the process is different for everyone, and the people who succeed tend to just keep going with it to the bitter end!

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