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The End of my Addiction

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Baclofenman
5 hours ago, Tm1210 said:

Been on TSM quite a few times. First time circa 2012 I did really well for around 6 months and for one reason or another stopped. The thing with TSM for me anyway is that I don't get a buzz from the booze. I can barely get et past 6 beer and in the end I was like fuck this if  I'm gonna drink I might as well enjoy it. 

 

Everyone's different though and looking back I had a decent few months on it that first time. Forgot to say it did nothing for my cravings even after 6 months I think that's partly why I stopped. I was also drinking more regularly to try and speed things up which is a bad idea . I actually have some still knocking around along with every other anti craving med?

 

 

 

Hi - Welcome

I have never understood the point of TSM - To me, certainly, it is a sticking plaster over drinking Al - It does not address the underlying issue as to why a person drinks AL - Sure it can be argued Baclofen does not either but in the case of Baclofen, for me, it has enabled me to get a stage further - To stop AL - Period, so at least I am in a state where I am at least in a position to address the underlying issue

As you say, everyone is different and everyone has different goals

Regards

 

Bacman

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I'm still an active dependent drinker and very unhappy to be so. Naltrexone is a route I have not yet tried (tried baclofen but the SEs were too much for me). I've been reading quite a lot about

Hopefully there will be more yet, @Baclofenman.  More, easier, cheaper, faster.  There must be other out of patent drugs out there that could help, sounds like a good way to put people to work, l

Thanks @joesixpack. TSM is one thing I haven't tried. I'm getting near the end of my rope, so maybe that's something I'll consider.   In better news, I'm doing an OK job of trying to get off this bend

phoenix
10 hours ago, Baclofenman said:

Hi - Welcome

I have never understood the point of TSM - To me, certainly, it is a sticking plaster over drinking Al - It does not address the underlying issue as to why a person drinks AL - Sure it can be argued Baclofen does not either but in the case of Baclofen, for me, it has enabled me to get a stage further - To stop AL - Period, so at least I am in a state where I am at least in a position to address the underlying issue

As you say, everyone is different and everyone has different goals

Regards

 

Bacman

 

TSM allowed me to get the alcohol intake down to the point where I could learn to live without it and figure out what was underlying. It's been like peeling layers off an onion. TSM then enabled me to quite drinking full stop, and before that I had 12 months where I barely drank. The changes and discoveries on my journey have been immense. What I liked about TSM is that it left me with a clearer head, and on non-drinking days which grew and grew until most of the time I was drinking only once a week, small number of units if that, Nal isn't used at all. That allowed me to discover me without any chemical influences.

In this next week I will hit 3 years AF, 3 years without ANY alcohol, not even a sip, not even on my wedding day, not even at Christmas, birthdays or whatever. I also know other TSMers who are AF.

When I started TSM I didn't want to drink, that was the last thing I wanted, however I was prepared to do ANYTHING to sort the problem with alcohol, that ANYTHING was to drink on TSM. It got me to where I want to be, TSM isn't always about continuing to drink, it's about working out what's best and what works for you.

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phoenix
2 hours ago, Nicnak said:

I believe TSM works with naltrexone but I have my doubts about Nalmefene

But I needed to stop drinking ASAP and Baclofen has done that for me

Brilliant stuff.

 

Yes Nalmefene was supposed to be 'better' than Nal and allowed it to be licenced for prescription for alcohol issues, however it appears to have more side effects and costs 3 x the price because of the licence. Very disappointing. I'd always recommend Naltrexone instead.

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I tried naltrexone and had good early results but then got prescribed Nalmefene from local alcohol services before I tried Baclofen for the second time.

Funnily enough I had no side effects on either 

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Don't get me wrong TSM definitely works. The old TSM forum is now sadly closed (I think) and there was loads of success stories. I started on July 2012 and literally overnight my units went down. As the months went on it was great but my goal was always to be abstinent and the that never looked like happening. By December so!etching happened I think I ran out and by the time I got more of slopes and just lost hope really, stupid looking baxk. Shit looking back, since then I've tried TSM twice more, Baclofen twice, cameral and Antabuse! My drinking has gotten way way worse to the point of withdrawals since baxk then also. Just today I got another script for cameral and and also have Antabuse if I need it. I also use psychedelics ever now and then. It's a trip alright that's for sure (life I mean not the LSD), we all just to have to find what works for ourselves.

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2 hours ago, Nicnak said:

I tried naltrexone and had good early results but then got prescribed Nalmefene from local alcohol services before I tried Baclofen for the second time.

Funnily enough I had no side effects on either 

The only thing I ever had se's on was bac. shit i couldn't cross the f**king road. I took it slow enough had a few false "switch's" and ended up at around 270mg. I had all sorts of she's all the way up. Combined with still binging on 3 bottles of wine I didn't know wether I was blown up or stuffed up! I tried again a year or 2 later but nothing changed. I remember getting the liquid off of loop and trying all sorts of brands. 

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@Tm1210

I know I'm a little late to this party, but I wanted to welcome you, Tm. Lots of good information here. 

I can only imagine what it was like to be on 270mg of baclofen and drinking 3 bottles of wine every night. Actually, that's not true. I did it, too, (though not as much wine) and it was excruciatingly painful. 

Are you still drinking heavily? Are you going to go through detox? Keep in touch about how it goes with the campral!

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joesixpack

TheSinclairMethod is back up, apparently the CC used by the fellow that owned the forum was reissued by the bank and the web host didn't let the guy know that there was a problem. 

I'm fairly well versed in TSM, so feel free to shoot me any questions. There's also the Options Save Lives forum, that's maintained by CThree Europe and "Joanna" there is a certified alch abuse counselor that offers free informal feedback/advise for TSM'ers. 

This board looks like a great resource for Medically Assisted Treatment in general, glad to have found it!

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StuckinLA

Hey TM12. I feel you, man. The constant benzo detoxes at home. And the end-of-bender vodka. That's my route, too, I get so sick of drinking I have to get something flavorless and mix it with gatorade or whatever. It sucks.

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joesixpack

Check out The Sinclair Method, StuckinLA. You use it while drinking. It eventually erases the compulsion to drink.

I was drinking over 80 beers a week, started TSM in early January. I've had 6 beers over the last month and most of my days have been dry. Have a look at Claudia Christian's TEDx talk on TSM:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=-9gMU_Lzsm4

Between the one method or the other, if you want to break free of the juice, you can do it. I've got a beer in the fridge that's been sitting there for over a month. I see it every time I open the fridge, but it just doesn't mean anything to me anymore. No trigger, no "oh, I can do without it", it just doesn't come up for a vote. 

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StuckinLA

Thanks @joesixpack. TSM is one thing I haven't tried. I'm getting near the end of my rope, so maybe that's something I'll consider.   In better news, I'm doing an OK job of trying to get off this bender. Beer, slowing down. Trying my hardest to avoid liquor - that means buying one pint bottle. I'm hoping to taper down and off this week. I hate tapering down, but it's what I gotta do. Then maybe some sober days. Anyway, thanks for the link (I've read the TSM book, what is it called, The Cure for Alcoholism I think.)

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joesixpack

Good show, StuckinLA! Hope you get back to zero soon! 

Yep! That's the book. There's also a video on Amazon you can watch for free if you have Prime, it's called "One Little Pill". 

I see a fair number of bingers come by TheSinclairMethod and Options Save Lives (both TSM boards), one of the first things they notice is that the blackouts stop, they actually remember what they did the night before. Many of them start pouring booze down the drain at the end of the night too, for the first time ever. 

I was a daily drinker, except for a couple of times I always remembered the night before. I just had this built-in avoidance that made me cut off when the room started moving without my permission...

I think that's just typical of daily drinkers, just like the "carved in stone" daily start time which we tend not to violate. Because only alcoholics do that, lol!

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joesixpack

You could try All Day Chemist, the Naltima brand seems to be the best tolerated. Tends to run around $80 or so for 30 tabs and takes a few weeks.

If you have a doc that's open to giving you a prescription, you can use GoodRx.com to get a discount at local pharmacies. Around here, it comes to about $40 for 30 tabs for the generic. Your doc will probably order a liver test, you could always walk into a Labcorp branch and get that beforehand. My doc wanted a CBC w/diff, GGT (not GTT, that's Glucose Tolerance Test) and CMP, maybe you can just call your doc and ask what he wants. 

I don't think Nalmefene would ship to the US anyway, plus the side effects seem to be a lot tougher.

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joesixpack

You might check the list here too, the "verified" docs know how to prescribe per TSM. If you use your regular doc, he'll probably write it to be taken once a day while abstinent. You can just nod and walk with the script, lots of TSM'ers of done that, but things are improving. I understand that Kaiser Permanente's docs are writing oral Naltrexone prescriptions with instructions that it be taken an hour before drinking, though they don't know of TSM per se. 

 

http://www.cthreefoundation.org/find-a-physician.html

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@joesixpack

Thanks, Joe! I'm glad you found us, too! The C3Europe website is pretty amazing. We aspire to be that some day! But they have a lot of money, a board of directors and a celebrity endorsement. That said, Joanna's commitment to the process (TSM) is really amazing. She and another person got their certifications just so they could help people online. That's pretty awesome. 

Glad that the Sinclair forum is back up, too. I got several emails about it being down, so I'm gonna start a thread, or at least email people that it's back up. 

Are you using TSM? Or some other med? 

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joesixpack

I used TSM to kill the beast, Ne1. Went from a 30+ year disorder that culminated in drinking over 80 standard drinks a week. I started in early January, as of the last 30 days I've had 6 beers and most of my days have been dry. The compulsion to drink has been erased to the point where it's only a whisper. It's kind of like trying to remember a tune that's on the tip of your tongue, but then it slips away. Or having a crazy yen for something to eat. You stand looking into the fridge, but you can't figure out what it is that you want. 

I think this website is great! There's a new subreddit that Joanna, "Mercurial_Freeze" and I started called Alcoholism_Medication ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/ ) that's in the same spirit. The Sinclair Method subreddit wasn't getting much traffic and we were getting flack for talking about it in /r/Alcoholism, so now we're pointing people to the new subreddit, but still participating in /r/Alcoholism to let people know that there are alternatives to the traditional approach and mindset. Generally, if people can get the job done via the traditional means of detox and strict abstinence (not necessarily via AA), all is well and they really don't need to pursue meds. The problem is that 90% will relapse within 4 years, very possibly multiple times, often burying themselves deeper than before. And what do they get told? It's their own fault, so stop being such a bad and wrong weak-willed boozer and another $40k will fix you right up. 

Now, given that TSM has a great success rate, we will mention that a fair bit, but we really don't care what gets people free. We're open to any safe alternative. There are things on the horizon, cheap out-of-patent drugs like Ondansetron (might work better for early onset AUD), etc. that might work, but Pharma isn't going to promote that stuff unless they can come up with something that can be patented out of it. Even so, with the ones we know about, there's something for everyone out there that wants to break free of AUD. If we keep on pushing, this will end up being more like going to your doc to get a prescription than the demeaning, failure-ridden cash cow that it is presently. 

 

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I've been meaning to post and participate on the Reddit forum. It was started by someone who participated in MWO, and thought that forums, in general, are going out of style. I disagree, but think the wider the variety, the more likely people are to find a solution. It's not like there is any lack of people with alcoholism! And I know for sure that we each have to find our own way. The more information and support systems, the better. AA has had a choke-hold on treatment for about 75 years. I hope we can move forward and expand the vanguard for treatment sometime very, very soon. 

I think the number of years is less than 4 for relapse, but it's been a while since I've read anything about it, so I'll not disagree! Success is pretty paltry, even with medications. Without them? It's downright dismal. 

I don't want to step on any toes, but I hope you'll give us a plug wherever it's appropriate. 

Also, we have an almost complete medication section here: http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org/forum/21-research/ I say it's almost complete because it doesn't include the less realistic, less science based, nor all of the research for each medication. Still, I like to think it's pretty exhaustive. I've linked C3 there, but should probably put a direct link to the forums part of it, too. Also, I'm not sure it's in the right place.

Anyway, thanks for participating. That's exactly the way I felt when I achieved success with baclofen. (I say achieved, because it's not like any of these things are foolproof, and we've got to be dedicated enough to use them consistently. Right?) 

We have two members who have used TSM successfully. They mostly posted on TheSinclairMethod. I'm so happy they've agreed to participate here, too. Glad the TSM site is back up and that it was just a glitch. That's a relief. But really, thanks again. :) 

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Hey Joe, hi.

 

Isn't there a genetic marker that can e tested for to determine ahead of time whether naltrexone will assist in quitting? I seem to remember reading something about this a while back. Congratulations on getting free!

 

Ah, answered my own question with a bit of googling... it seems there is: "These results confirm and extend the observation that the functionally significant OPRM1 Asp40 allele predicts naltrexone treatment response in alcoholic individuals." Taken from here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2666924/

 

Although I then saw a later study that seems to directly contradict that, here: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/841714

 So who knows really? Can't hurt to try if you are currently short of ideas.

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joesixpack
1 hour ago, Ne1 said:

"I think the number of years is less than 4 for relapse,..."

Yea, verrily! But 4 years is the window that NIAAA was looking at. You and I know that many will relapse multiple times in the first year (or even in the first couple of months). 

/r/alcoholism has mainly been taken over by AA sorts, that's one of the reasons we've stepped up the game. Interesting to know that it was started by someone from MWO (did I get that right?).

This seems like a great resource! I just mentioned it to the other mods of the new subreddit, I'll see what they think about listing it in the sidebar. I think it would be a great addition!

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joesixpack
42 minutes ago, bleep said:

So who knows really? Can't hurt to try if you are currently short of ideas.

Yes, I think the allele in question responds rather more quickly to TSM, I've seen a few in the forums that seem to get control in pretty short order. The overall success rate is about 78%, but some take over a year to get there. In the meantime, they get a fair drop in their intake, so there's some damage reduction as a benefit along the way.

Then there's the ~20% that it doesn't work for (10% don't comply, 10% comply, but get no results). I'm intrigued by Ondansetron, I wish there were more studies on this. Hella cheap too, as the standard doses don't do a thing for AUD, but  dial it down to around 4 micrograms per kilogram and all of a sudden it works. Hits the 5HT3 receptor and so affects downstream dopamine release, whereas Naltrexone hits that target via the opioid receptors. 

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joesixpack

Interesting that older age and smoking saw a higher percentage of dropouts. This study used a higher dose too, 16mg. A dose for me per the other study would be about 280 micrograms (4 micrograms per kilogram). 

We've got a link to the Atlantic article in the sidebar, I've heard fair mention of it by new TSM'ers coming in to Options Save Lives and TheSinclairMethod. 

Edited by joesixpack
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joesixpack

Joanna wanted me to pass on a bit of info, wrt CThree Europe, she said:

"...we don't have a lot of money at all! Wish we did. Our donations per year total around £500 max - and most of that is raised through me killing myself on a cycle ride! In fact, that cycle ride raised enough money to be able to get our counselling certifications.... In addition, since the website began in April 2014, I have paid for the running of it, and all expenses including phone calls etc, out of my own pocket....."

I know that she has a business that she runs too and has to take time from that to keep C3E going and provide free counseling for folks. There's an ongoing formal counseling requirement to get Namefene or Naltrexone on the NHS, plus C3 and C3E provide informal counseling for TSM'ers outside the UK as time allows. 

About the genetic markers:

"It is thought that TSM success MAY depend on which type of opioid receptor someone may have. There are 2 types of receptors in the brain. However, this has not been proved to be the case, it is just a best guess by the scientists. There is a test to see which receptor someone has. However, it is very, very expensive to test for - at around $1000. Due to the inexpensiveness of the tablets, and since the type of opioid receptor is not 100% conclusive as to an indication of whether TSM will work or not, then it is recommended that someone just gets the tablets and tries the method."

And about Nalmefene vs Naltrexone:

" In terms of results, there is no marked difference between the effectiveness of naltrexone vs nalmefene. The idea that nalmefene is better comes from the marketing, I think, because those with liver damage can use it."

 

 

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phoenix

I would agree with the advice to just get on it, if you are going to drink anyway there's no harm in trying to see if you can start a process which may lead you to reduce, or quit.

I've never had the genetic testing, I was happy with whatever TSM did to me. Right from the start my intake per session was halved, I then of course drank more often because it was 'safer' (my drinking sessions wiped me out) than pre-TSM and I enjoyed the novelty of drinking not causing mayhem. After a few months I was able to shoot for AF days, I desperately wanted them, and it worked. Didn't acheive full cure until 5-6 month mark. Fast responder?Sort of!

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Thanks so much for sharing your experience with naltrexone, phoenix. I'm really grateful that you're here and able to help people, given your extensive experience with meds, and with long term sobriety/abstinence. :75_EmoticonsHDcom:

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