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The End of my Addiction

similar sub on reddit was created, we should have moved there


neophyte
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/

they are already getting more traffic and posts, because so many people use reddit, they will get bigger than here. these guys have created the sub but imo dont have the expertise of the guys who created this forum e.g. terryk

Just look at how they listed the medications in order of "success" 78%  for naltrexone then ~42-62% for baclofen, so of course anyone who goes on that site is going to think naltrexone is superior. ive created a post around this before and im not here to say one is better than the other. the information on there isn't great compared to here, no consolidated threads with studies for example.

the sub they created is basically now all naltrexone posts, where as i would have invisioned a more balanced discussion. ive messaged them several times last time in regards to the 78% study which TerryK was flawed. I got no answer, they dont know the science behind these drugs.

I still own /r/AlcoholismMedication if there is any interest. i just dont have the time and my knowledge is mainly about baclofen and addiction models.

this sub i actually prefer but its just the nature of the internet, forums are less popular now then social media aggregation sites.

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Thanks, Neo, I just had a look.  You're right it's almost exclusively focused on TSM.  I saw your post with the link to  Dr Amanda Stafford's videos & the comments below it almost immediately revert to a discussion about nal!

I know nothing about Reddit.  I found Alcoholism_Medication by Googling (the link in your post doesn't work). but I can't find AlcoholismMedication which you own.  Can you try another link please?  I don't do any social aggregation sites so not sure what I'm doing!

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hi Molly

here is the sub i control AlcoholismMedication

the above link to alcoholism_medication works for me.

its frustrating because ive noted several problems with their sub and they have stopped replying, my posts are backed with science, these guys dont know how to read studies and simply copy and pasted on the NAL info from a pro NAL site. I got as much from a message from them.

like i said, it shouldnt be one being better than the other but the way they depict baclofen with a % success rate is that its an inferior choice, which we know is not the case.

its not too late to change things, if someone wants to help me mod /r/alcoholismmedication and provide an unbiased, science based approach to the mattter, let me know. best thing about reddit, its all free nad there are large numbers of eyes on there. i get over 100 unique visitors to /r/baclofenforalcoholism/ on there. its pretty dead, but people do subscribe, just dont post much. As far as im concered its more of information repository for people who are interested.

Edited by neophyte
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ive personally helped a few guys out with my sub, so its made a difference at least. funnily enough december is when i get the most uniques 180, wonder why :P

 

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I've never been on reddit, but I have now.

I've also never seen a forum taken over by TSM (apart from TSM specific forums), most of my experiences of medication discussion have been here and MWO. Both places discuss(ed) Baclofen in abundance, and seem to think that was the only way which was discouraging for those who don't get on with HDB, and who do find success with TSM or whatever other method they use to get the booze under control.

If it's purporting to be a 'general' medication for alcoholism forum it should provide a fair and balanced view, not something I've found anywhere in alcoholism discussions. For some reason many think their way is the best. Personally I couldn't give a stuff, but I do give a stuff when folk get on their high horses, it's not fair and can lead to those for whom a method doesn't work feeling even worse - it's another fail.

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ive fallen for the trap that baclofen is the only way, but in some ways i still hold that view, naltrexone is effective if you are compliant with it, if you skip your doses you can still get a buzz. I've also seen anecdotes of people saying they still drink on naltrexone but it stops them from having the last few drinks. what ive gathered from this is that if you really want to be sober it will work. but if you play games with the medication you can still get a kick out of alcohol.

baclofen on the other hand needs to be slowly reduced to not cause withdrawal symptoms like those seen in benzodiazepine users. so you cant just stop taking baclofen one day and go on a bender.

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On 10/1/2016 at 5:50 PM, neophyte said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/

they are already getting more traffic and posts, because so many people use reddit, they will get bigger than here. these guys have created the sub but imo dont have the expertise of the guys who created this forum e.g. terryk

Just look at how they listed the medications in order of "success" 78%  for naltrexone then ~42-62% for baclofen, ...

Hi, Neo. I appreciate your post and the previous one similar to it.

First of all, please note that the subreddit Alcoholism_Medication was created by Joanna on CThreeEurope and a couple of others who are actively involved there. So just as your subreddit does not specify which medications, theirs does not either, though their subreddit seems to have more info about TSM and yours is solely about baclofen. 

I feel as though you may be frustrated with the fact that the subreddit Alcoholism_Medication proclaims a 78% success rate for treating (or curing) alcoholism. The issue, from our perspective, is that it is a number that is a part of their history, and while unreliable statistically, not a reason to quibble. The quote is on the book, it's on all the websites about TSM...Arguing about whether or not it is accurate is very likely to create misunderstandings or worse. I have no interest in having that debate here, or participating in it elsewhere. The bottom line is that TSM can work for some, daily naltrexone can work for some, and baclofen can work for some. Ditto campral, gabapentin, ondansetron and the list goes on.

Terryk does a remarkable job of finding, correlating and comparing information in research, but in this case it's relatively moot. Let me explain. 

People with alcoholism may be looking at the numbers and think, "Hey! This has a better outcome than that. I'll try it." It is very unlikely that they'll take the time to understand the nuances of research. Truthfully, while we can "trust" objective information more readily than subjective, the subjective information (and support) may make the difference between someone getting on with recovery or failing to find even a modicum of success. Furthermore, there is not (really) comparable reliable research to compare and contrast any of the medications. Statistically speaking the numbers are too low, the projects too short, the follow up spotty, the research biased or in some way compromised. So do the numbers really matter?  

I based my decision to take baclofen instead of naltrexone not on research (because back then it didn't exist for baclofen) but because there were aspects of TSM I was uncomfortable with. (Like consistently taking a pill that would make drinking less fun. That wasn't going to happen for me.)

The statistics for actual long-term recovery are probably fairly poor across the board. Better than no treatment, but it's almost impossible to tell how much better. That will be true for years. What's more, particularly in the case of baclofen, a lot of the research and information that's been done is not really relevant to people with healthy immune systems. It's mostly been done on people with (often) severe immunological compromises or muscular wasting diseases and simply doesn't apply to people taking oral baclofen, even in high doses.

I know you know all of this. I'm just reiterating it to help everyone understand that this site is completely open and supportive of people who take medications in order to combat alcoholism. There are several here for whom TSM has worked, and I truly appreciate that they are here to help others with the process. There are also several people who are combining TSM with baclofen, or will try it soon. I'm not sure they care about whether that number (78%) is totally accurate either. (As an aside, don't you remember when Dr. L and Dr. Ameisen, himself, promised a 90+% success rate? We all knew, even then, it wasn't accurate. Doesn't mean he couldn't say it, though. Anyway....)

Finally, I know that @joesixpack and Joanna are working toward integrating information. Rather than contradicting information that they have shared about TSM, I would much prefer to make sure that they have access to accurate information about baclofen (and even other resources to other meds). You've done a remarkable job of keeping that information on your subreddit. Perhaps the two can be combined? Or, if that's too confusing, the two can refer to each other for more accurate information. That way, the people who host the information about TSM (and/or daily naltrexone or nalmefene) wouldn't need to have to keep up on the latest information about baclofen. And vice-versa.

I know you think these forums are dying. They may well be on their way out. And I've lost weeks of my life wandering around Reddit. So I sort of agree with you. But for me, personally, keeping the dinosaurs moving while the Jetsons move in is just as important as making room for ALL of us to share absolute support and as much information as we can for each person who reaches out for help. Regardless of where. 

Put another way, the more saturation there is, the more information there is, the more likely people are going to find accurate, up-to-date information and support from people who've been there. 

 

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The internet is a dangerous place:

For instance, I purchased an additive which claimed to "save your car radiator" - It failed because the claim was rubbish and I moved on....

Whilst, I accept, Alcohol Medication is a different animal, the process of decision is the same, (attraction to the information they want you to read - Target Marketingunless you have done your research, in which case you will know the answer 

Neo, I know you have an issue with the 78% claim but neither you or I can prevent this claim being made - The reasons for the claim are known and *on whatever* the basis of these claims may be, is not going to stop them being made - As was pointed out above this /r/ is a TSM editorial one so they are bound to say it, aren't they? - And TSM works for some people

5 hours ago, phoenix said:

If it's purporting to be a 'general' medication for alcoholism forum it should provide a fair and balanced view

@phoenix - You are definitely top of my best quotes list - Yes, it should, as should this Forum - I for one would love to see some experiences of TSM users rather that reverting back to this 78% business again

1 hour ago, Admin2 said:

I know you think these forums are dying. They may well be on their way out. And I've lost weeks of my life wandering around Reddit. So I sort of agree with you. But for me, personally, keeping the dinosaurs moving while the Jetsons move in is just as important as making room for ALL of us to share absolute support and as much information as we can for each person who reaches out for help. Regardless of where. 

It is all about target audiences and subject matter - Alcoholism is not something that is going to die out in the near future, therefore people will always need a alcoholism platform - Reddit, in my (very limited) experience appears very over complicated (for what it is) and is likely to put off people, especially those with a shorter attention span - But maybe I am just one of those dinosaurs? 

Regards

 

Bacman

Edited by Baclofenman
God sake - Can't even spell my own name right!!
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i think ive already burnt my bridges with those guys with my initial post claiming baclofen was better, i tried to make up for it and simply pointed out the 78% figure was on a flawed study and that all i wanted was a balanced place to discuss meds. I don't get a response now. it would be nice if there was some collaboration, at the very least people should get the idea, if one doesnt work try the other. 

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