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Ne1

Whole30 and other limited or elimination diets

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Ne1

I know I already started a "Nutrition" thread, but this one is for those of us who are either paleo or Whole30 or something similar. I'm gonna need A LOT of help. I mean, talk to me like I'm a fifth grader. I've never dieted before. I mostly eat whole foods (meaning not processed) but I am not exaggerating when I tell you that most of my meals (if you can call them that) revolve around foods that have to be eliminated.

My diet of choice is Whole30 because it allows fruit. I have to have fruit.

I eat yogurt or cereal for breakfast. Whatever is fast, easy, available or nothing at all for lunch. Many times that's where the beer comes in, ftr. Dinner is traditional American--Meat, starch, veg or two. I eat sugar and candy all day every day. 

We're giving up a thing a week at a time, until all have been eliminated and then completely Whole30 for one month, which I guess will be November 9th. 

I went to Whole Foods (all natural, mostly organic, VERY expensive grocery food chain for you peeps overseas. We joke that every bag bought at Whole Foods is equivalent to $75, when it's not even full.) I bought some beef jerky for snacks. Not sure how I feel about that, but it's chocked full of protein and I don't have to do anything to make it edible. And some snacks made of corn or peas or beans. 

Actually, come to think of it, my main priority is to find things I can eat during the day that are in the "don't have to do anything to eat it" category.

If someone mentions carrot sticks, I might reach through the computer and stick them with a fork in the eye. Just sayin'.

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Ne1

I have discovered that half and half (for my coffee) with coconut cream and almond milk is not so bad. It ain't cream. But it's okay. On the other hand, coffee isn't allowed anyway, so it's rather moot after this week. <sigh>

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Ne1

A couple more things.

Felina, in particular, and anyone else who knows about this stuff, I'm not kidding when I ask you to teach me like I'm a toddler. I just don't know anything about this stuff because I stopped paying attention when I decided that everything contradicted everything else and it was all made-up hoo-ha First-World-Problems type shit. But please help! 

Second, I just found out that most of the nuts I eat (not peanuts) are not legumes and I did a happy dance. :) 

EDIT: It's got to be free. My husband's a chef so we can make anything taste good. But I spent my last dollar on a spectacularly tacky red-tinsel-Christmas-tree at an auction last night and will not be spending any money on cookbooks, and etc.

Much love. 

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Molly78

Well I had to Google whole30 to find out what it was.

I'm a bit puzzled (again!  Sorry, decades of alcoholism have shrunk my brain) as to why you are embarking on this right now.  Are you not still taking various pharmaceuticals, surely these are messing with your body & brain more than dairy/legumes/whatever?  And are you actually going to be struggling with this unappetising diet while trying not to drink?  Without the help of bac even?  And no sugar to ease the cravings?

Is it supposed to make you feel so good that you won't want to drink?

Ne, you really do put yourself through it!  I take my hat off to you for this venture, but........I can't see the point!

Oh and - has Ed agreed to join you?  What a loyal husband if he has!

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Molly78

Sorry, I realise I've posted this on the wrong forum - you specifically asked for help, not criticism of your decision.

I thought about removing it, but not sure whether you had already read it?

(Just ignore me)

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Felina
On 10/11/2016 at 10:18 AM, Ne1 said:

Felina, in particular, and anyone else who knows about this stuff, I'm not kidding when I ask you to teach me like I'm a toddler. I just don't know anything about this stuff because I stopped paying attention when I decided that everything contradicted everything else and it was all made-up hoo-ha First-World-Problems type shit. But please help! 

Second, I just found out that most of the nuts I eat (not peanuts) are not legumes and I did a happy dance. :) 

EDIT: It's got to be free. My husband's a chef so we can make anything taste good. But I spent my last dollar on a spectacularly tacky red-tinsel-Christmas-tree at an auction last night and will not be spending any money on cookbooks, and etc.

The Whole 30 is pretty simple. You eat meat, fish, eggs, vegetables, fruit, potatoes, sweet potatoes and small amounts of nuts. That means you won't be eating grains, beans, dairy, sugar, or processed foods. You also want to throw out all of your crappy oils - the "vegetable oil," canola oil, corn oil, soybean oil, Crisco, cheap mayonnaise, margarine, etc. Saturated fat is fine (it is especially protective of our poor alcoholic livers, look it up). That means butter is fine (especially butter from grass-fed/pastured cows), as is lard, olive oil, avocado oil, coconut oil, etc. I use an avocado oil-based mayonnaise called Primal Kitchen, but of course if your husband is a chef he can whip up a batch of mayo in no time. Don't try to cut out fat! It is healthy and satiating and it makes food taste so much better.

A good, fast, easy, filling breakfast I like to make is scrambled eggs with fried sweet potatoes and onions. (Coconut oil is really good with sweet potatoes. Just sayin'.) Then you might have baked chicken with vegetables and potatoes for another meal. There are volumes of Whole 30/paleo type recipes online. You do NOT want to try to go "low carb." Eat your potatoes, squash, fruit etc or you will crash and burn. This diet is so good for you and there are endless variations.

Also, don't beat yourself up if you aren't "perfect." As I have to tell myself 20x a day, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good! 

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Ne1
On 10/11/2016 at 3:30 PM, Molly78 said:

Well I had to Google whole30 to find out what it was.

I'm a bit puzzled (again!  Sorry, decades of alcoholism have shrunk my brain) as to why you are embarking on this right now.  Are you not still taking various pharmaceuticals, surely these are messing with your body & brain more than dairy/legumes/whatever?  And are you actually going to be struggling with this unappetising diet while trying not to drink?  Without the help of bac even?  And no sugar to ease the cravings?

Is it supposed to make you feel so good that you won't want to drink?

Ne, you really do put yourself through it!  I take my hat off to you for this venture, but........I can't see the point!

Oh and - has Ed agreed to join you?  What a loyal husband if he has!

Molly, I understand what you're saying, but there's an underlying point that perhaps has been looked over because I haven't been posting regularly or in one place. 

First of all, in general, I don't "diet". By that I mean that I don't count calories, limit foods, eat all of one thing and none of another thing. That said, there is good science about the fact that what we eat, in general, isn't very good for us. (I mean all of us in, I guess, the developed world.) Ed also has some digestive/GI problems, and it will be interesting to see if this elimination diet helps. 

The main idea behind the diet Whole30 is to eat whole foods. Foods that look like what they come from. The second is that some foods may be, for some people, inflammatory. (Sugar, without question, is inflammatory.) Inflammation irritates everything. In addition to being a Psychiatric Assistant and therapist, my pDoc is a life coach who studies holistic medicine. She suggested the diet for two reasons. The first is what I've already explained. The second is that she knows I don't diet to lose weight, and I need to lose weight. Any time anyone pays close attention to what they're ingesting, they tend to lose weight. (Doesn't matter if it's counting calories or doing paleo or whatever...If you are mindful about what you put in your mouth, you're going to make a difference in your diet. That's science, too.)

Ed and I are going to drop categories one week at a time, and then stick with it for a month. The only caveat I have (and this is particularly ironic) is that sugar curbs craving, and if I have to eat a pound of peanut MnMs so that I don't drink a dozen beers, I'm going to do it. 

Whole30 is relatively simple. Ed's a chef. We just leave out legumes and grains the first week. Dairy (except butter) the second. We generally don't eat processed foods anyway, though I'm a sucker for junk food at times. We love veggies and will increase our proteins and veggies at meal times. No biggie. 

If it gets in the way of not drinking, or anything else, then we'll stop doing it. 

Today's my first day back on meds to combat alcoholism, so it's not a replacement for that. In fact, from my perspective, it doesn't have much to do with alcoholism. It is just a path to health... (My pDoc thinks it is actually very relevant to alcoholism, FTR, but she and I disagree about a lot of stuff! HA! Still, I'm desperate and if she tells me to jump, I'll hop like a frog. At the same time, if it doesn't work for me, we talk about it and move on, whatever it is. Ya' know? We have an amazing relationship that way.)

 

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Ne1
11 hours ago, Felina said:

Also, don't beat yourself up if you aren't "perfect." As I have to tell myself 20x a day, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good! 

I'm gonna put that on my vision board. Brilliant. Thanks, sister. 

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Molly78
5 hours ago, Ne1 said:

If it gets in the way of not drinking, or anything else, then we'll stop doing it. 

I'm relieved to hear that - & that you're going back on meds, I wasn't sure about that.

I do understand the principles of good nutrition & how it affects your mind & body.  I was just worried you were letting yourself in for yet another change of lifestyle at a time when you are vulnerable because of your alcohol intake/exams/finances etc.

Actually I find my diet has improved immensely since I stopped drinking, without much effort on my part - apart from some good sugar binges at the beginning.  I swear I hardly glance in the direction of the Haribos these days when I go into the local shop.......

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SKendall

I am following no sugar diet (sugar as the inflammatory) and Chron's diet, so I'm restricted.  Did just the Whole30 at first but quickly added what I felt I should add.  Before eating, I visualize which foods  will heal me vs. the ones that won't and find this very effective.  I used this visualization with alcohol also.

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Ne1

@Molly78, I really only have one goal. Well, that's not exactly true. I'm officially overweight, and something has to be done about that, but I've never been able to diet (and they don't work) to manage my weight. Still, despite the fact that my weight makes me uncomfortable and unhappy, all I really want to do is quit drinking. Everything, everything, everything else, falls into line after that. (And is SO MUCH EASIER!) I ate the equivalent of several candy bars the other day and then didn't drink. I figure that's a fair swap. Bottom line is that as long as I'm drinking anything an elimination diet is only going to be relatively effective. (Alcohol being a huge irritant, in and of itself. Of everything.) 

@SKendall, I love that you're visualizing what's good for you! That's a great suggestion. How're you feeling? 

@Felina, I just HAD to have a dehydrator a couple of years ago and Ed got me one for Christmas. I finally took it out of the box this weekend after shopping for beef jerkey and dried fruits and veg (without stuff in them) at Whole Foods. (Oh, Lordy, the prices!) I'm a food-drying-fool now! Haven't tried beef jerky, yet, as it kinda grosses me out, so I'm leaving that for Ed to do later this week. Those snacks have taken the pain out of trying to feed myself correctly for lunch. I'm a snack-er, anyway. 

So far, dairy's gone. I miss cream in my coffee so much I don't even want coffee anymore, so that's out, too. Grains and legumes this week. 

Refined sugar may never happen. 

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Felina

@Ne1 you're doing better than I am at the moment! I have been on a bit of a sugar binge of late.

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Ne1

@Felina, nope. I am quitting quitting foods until I quit booze. 

I was STARVING yesterday, even after a Whole30 breakfast and lunch. Drank a beer. Too good. Got more beer. Even better. Decided to make some popcorn (the only damn carbs left in the house!) and slathered it with butter and salt. Two bowls later, no more craving booze. No more booze! 

I'm going to buy the Party Size MnMs, find some decent carbs, and wait to eliminate anything until the cravings for booze are gone. I mean, when it comes right down to it, following an anti-inflammation diet, while still drinking booze at all, is kind of like emptying the ocean with a teacup. (Or some other better analogy.) 

I have no doubt that the butter really helped, in addition to the popcorn. (Which is also nice because it's...

Started this post about 8 hours ago and have no idea what I was going to say. Except, maybe, that I love butter? 

Don't get me wrong. Nutrition is where it's at. And I'm not trying to go all pre-fab, processed-food-fest. But whole food? With refined sugar and over-processed, bad-dye-included, sugar when necessary to curb alcohol cravings or substitute for AL? Definitely yes. 

Still loving the dehydrator, FTR. Apples definitely a bonus this time of year. Can't wait to dry tomatoes next year.

But sticking with today, and today only. I paid (no kidding) $31/pound for beef jerky at Whole Foods. Even at that price, it's got additives and stuff in it. However much we pay for beef to dry, it won't come close and I have some amazing spices and marinades to try. :) 

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Alice22

Ne, 

I think I mentioned I bought a cleanse/elimination diet package from my Naturopath to the tune of almost $300 (I was drunk when I bought it).  No way can I do it now.  I eat anything I want and figure I can overhaul my diet later.   I don't have a huge  appetite on or off baclofen  but I'm definitely craving fat much more than usual, ice cream, butter, heavy cream ( I put this in my coffee) so I find @Felina's comment really interesting.  I try to just listen to what my body wants and eat accordingly whether it's  meat, candy, vegetables.  It seems over a few days it all evens out and all food groups are covered. I don't think much about it .  I don't want to have to think about what I eat right now or put any extra effort into shopping, cooking.  I need my energy for other things right now.  I wish I could return the $300 cleanse.  

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Molly78
2 hours ago, Alice22 said:

Ne, 

I think I mentioned I bought a cleanse/elimination diet package from my Naturopath to the tune of almost $300 (I was drunk when I bought it).  No way can I do it now.  I eat anything I want and figure I can overhaul my diet later.   I don't have a huge  appetite on or off baclofen  but I'm definitely craving fat much more than usual, ice cream, butter, heavy cream ( I put this in my coffee) so I find @Felina's comment really interesting.  I try to just listen to what my body wants and eat accordingly whether it's  meat, candy, vegetables.  It seems over a few days it all evens out and all food groups are covered. I don't think much about it .  I don't want to have to think about what I eat right now or put any extra effort into shopping, cooking.  I need my energy for other things right now.  I wish I could return the $300 cleanse.  

Alice, thank you for that!  I was trying to convert Ne to that line of thought earlier in the thread but I didn't do it very well.

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Ne1

So I'm back on the idea of doing the Whole30. The idea is to eliminate foods that may cause inflammation or are suspected to be not good for us, in general. Not going to make myself crazy about it, but we're both committed to giving it a real go. 

We'll officially start next week. I made my first Whole30 dinner last night. Spaghetti squash is a wonder! It's been years since I've eaten it and yum! 

The recipes I've found online are not so good. I used one to make aioli last night and it was just plain wrong. Not even sure why I was following a recipe, since it's kind of a no-brainer to make and I've done it many, many times. 

I have too many cookbooks I ignore to order the official Whole30. I'm inspired to try the recipes in the Lydia Bastianich cookbooks I own, which prior to now were too cumbersome. Some of the other even fancier ones, too. If I actually make my own bone broth (delish!) then the sauces I love will be much easier to realize. I'm pretty ambivalent to food, but love sauces. 

I guess I'm going to freeze frittatas for lunches. I know you guys might not get it, but I'm not a fan of eating meals in general. Weird. But I'm 47 and I've been like this my whole life, drove my mother crazy, so I don't expect dramatic changes. 

I ordered a prebiotic from the manufacturer my pDoc uses (Xymogen). Going to include probiotics, too. Ed's GI tract has always been messed up, with no medical explanations, and I have unrecognizable food "issues" I have never really explored. (Not the diagnosable ones, like anorexia/bulimia. More like blood sugar issues and a laundry list of things I don't or won't eat. like leftovers.) 

Biggest challenge? Cream with coffee and CHOCOLATE. Not the good stuff, either. Reese's and peanut MnMs are my kryptonite. 

Suggestions and recipes would be very welcome. Even a lecture about eating clean, despite my mini-rant. 

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BarrelChested

I think that @Felina mentioned milk thistle.  I know that I had elevated ALT levels (this is a liver enzyme test; this suggests liver damage/problems/etc) for decades. I started taking Milk Thistle a few years ago. I saw an immediate change on my liver tests (i.e, lab results). As a heavy drinker, I'm worried about my liver. I always explicitly ask my GP to include liver function/etc test. Milk Thistle certainly seems to help.

The obvious caveat is that everyone's body, environment, genetic history, and life history is different. What seems to work for me might be ineffective for others.  I encourage you to read the Wikipedia page on Milk Thistle.  While I take a number of supplements (I'm fairly athletic), there are few that I'm willing to endorse. If you do long-distance cycling, you really should find a way to bump-up your magnesium intake -- either as tablets or via blackstrap molasses. Magnesium helps stave-off cramping (as does water and Na & K). I believe that these products are a great benefit to me. The others... well, I might just be making expensive urine. Meh, it's worth a shot if you have disposable income.

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Ne1

Thanks, BC. I have had every test you can think of, in addition to the routine CBC and CMP. Not a thing wrong, despite my attempts at self-destruction. My pDoc was convinced I had an MTHFR deficiency, but nope. Same with thyroid. Even my vitamin D levels were in high normal range, without supplementation, for the first time in my life! (Walking the dog without sunscreen! Being outside works! Who knew?! ;)

I'm still taking the vitamin Bs and some other stuff she recommended. (Expensive urine, probably.) I've ordered, through her, a prebiotic if and until I start making my own. 

I spent a fortune at three grocery stores gearing up for Whole30 and beyond. Actually bought some black strap molasses, though I don't think we can use that in the Whole30. I want to set it up to get my sugar fixes from something other than white, processed sugar for the future. 

If I do long distance anything, I'll be crowing about it on here so loudly you won't miss it. 

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BarrelChested

I hate bullsh1t "food" and, worse, "food substitutes." However, when you're riding 60-100mi on a bicycle, well, you just need the energy. This sort of exercise rapidly depletes your glycogen stores (that is, "fuel" -- carbs that are ready to be burned to power your muscles). While you can't directly add glycogen back into your body, you CAN (and really must) consume simple sugars as you go. If you hit "empty," you're done. It takes hours to back-fill those energy stores. Sooooo...

I make my own "gels." While I actually LIKE  the flavor of the "GU" product  (I know, this is perverse -- the stuff is as unnatural/unholy as it gets), my body does not. So, I make my own energy gels from (4 parts honey  + 1 part blackstrap molasses + sea salt). I used to add-in peanut butter (for the protein)... but it gets stuck in the squeeze bottles.  The sea salt provides sodium and the BS molasses provides magnesium -- these are both needed to stave-off cramping (which is brutal).  Of course, every cyclist lives and breathes bananas (potassium - also critical for preventing cramps). The last piece of the puzzle is, naturally, water. You just have to drink a lot.

 

A great pre-ride food is an organic green apple (high polyphenol count). Apples are slow-burning carbs. Those sugars should become bio-available after, say, two hours.  The food you eat is not directly converted to fuel. Rather, you're back-filling your glycogen stores. Learning to eat on the bike is a huge part of having a good time/performance. Every athlete has to learn which foods work for their body. Sh1t, I actually miss Cliff bars (peanut butter). Alas, I'm off of nuts/legumes/seeds AND, more importantly, sugar.

If you eat oats (I've given-up grains), BSM is great in oatmeal. The best oatmeal is made from non-quick oats and sea salt. KISS. Oh, and that also sux -- oatmeal was my go-to early-morning pre-ride meal.  But I've given-up grains. I'll have to figure-out something new. Training begins about a month. Ugh. Starting is the hardest part. Or was it the bitter cold? Maybe it's waking up before Satan to for a fscking training ride? I've apparently blocked it out. I need a drink (kidding!).

Edited by BarrelChested

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Felina
On 11/29/2016 at 7:17 AM, Ne1 said:

I ordered a prebiotic from the manufacturer my pDoc uses (Xymogen). Going to include probiotics, too.

Lady! You don't need to buy prebiotics. Just eat cooked and cooled white rice and/or potatoes, or green bananas in a smoothie. They are all high in resistant starch, which is a fantastic prebiotic. I will link to Mark's Daily Apple, just because his content is so wonderfully informed. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/resistant-starch-your-questions-answered/

I've never done the "official" Whole30 (which is 30 days of very strict paleo-type eating, no exceptions) but I've followed their movement for years and lean towards that style of eating when I can. (Not now. Lately I've been a stressed-out mess and my diet has reflected it. I feel like a complete hypocrite for even giving nutritional advice atm.)

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BarrelChested

The Whole30 looks similar to the Sarah Ballantyne's  AIP diet.  Here's the "Cliff Notes" version: http://wellnessmama.com/22689/autoimmune-diet/ .

I did this diet for several months. It ended decades of problems -- as confirmed by lab results and an absence of blood in the toilet. I fully followed it. Then, I added back booze. And my health took a turn for the worse (although I'm still far healthier that I was).  And that was the "last straw" that got me to really try to stop drinking. This is what got me to chemically castrate myself.  That diet did wonders for me.

I like the advice of Michael Pollan: "Eat [real] food. Not too much. Mostly vegetables."  If you have a LOT of time on your hands, I recommend "The Paleo Approach," by Sarah Ballantyne.  I read 2/3 of the book -- AFTER six weeks on her diet. She takes a few liberties science... but it's otherwise pretty sound (I have a Biology degree and am a science nerd). I don't like to do things "blindly" -- without understanding the underlying biochemical/biological mechanisms. So, that book really "works" for me. YMMV.

And @Felina is right: the best prebiotics are found in real food. Organic green apples and bananas are good sources. Onions and garlic are also excellent. Rice and potatoes can be problematic for some people. Personally, I recently discovered that my body doesn't play well with nightshades (potatoes).  Good luck.

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BarrelChested

BTW: if you're looking for ideas, you could always try to make (and then cool) mofongo -- or it's healthier Dominican cousin, mangu.

 

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BarrelChested
On 10/11/2016 at 10:00 AM, Ne1 said:

My diet of choice is Whole30 because it allows fruit. I have to have fruit.

If you intend to lose weight, you need to restrict your carbs a bit.  I forget the recommendation (30g of sugar/day?). Basically 1-3 pieces of fruit per day is fine.  Now, I did (er, am doing with the exception of booze... which is a huge exception) the AIP diet to improve my health (not to lose weight). However, I did drop 24lbs in two months on this diet. I figure that a lot of that was "water weight" which I lost when I removed the inflammatory components of my diet. It was a pleasant surprise. That doesn't mean that anyone else will get the same benefit(s).

FYI, when I added-back booze, the weight loss stopped. In fact, the weight's been slowly creeping back on. Alcohol (ethanol) is not a carbohydrate. It's not "sugar." However, it does rip-up your gut AND, more importantly, can sabotage your efforts. In layman's terms, it has "queuing priority" in the body. In the absence of free glucose, the body burns triglycerides (fat). When sugar/etc is introduced, the TG's are shunted into the cells so that the body can concentrate on converting those carbs to ATP. Etc. However, regardless of what the body's doing, the second you introduce alcohol, ALL OTHER METABOLISM STOPS. Basically, at least.  The body's top metabolic priority is to get process those toxins (booze) out of the body. That elevated metabolic rate you got from the exercise you just did? Buh bye.

The two things that I've found to be most damaging to my health and well-being are 1) sleep and 2) booze. In that order. I'm just figuring out that if I get enough sleep, it's far easier to resist booze. And, I'm happier.  Conversely, it took me years to grok that lack of sleep makes me hella grumpy.  I've had three nights of good sleep... and I just don't feel like drinking. Instead of the 5-6 hours I've been getting, I got 7-9hrs for the last few days. Looking back, I'm seeing the correlation between sleep deprivation and both my level of give-a-fsck and my propensity to binge-drink (or, in my case, drink at all).

 

I'm just stunned that sleep is so important. I always feel cheated by sleep. I'd rather live my life than sleep (and I almost never remember my dreams). However... life with sufficient sleep is much more pleasant than the other way around. In my 20s through mid 30s, I got 3-5hrs/night. By 37 or so, I started to need 5-7 hours/night. Almost ten years later, I'm finally figuring it out. Holy crap, life is better when you're properly rested. Uh, in fact, I only really recognized the importance of sleep when I stopped drink for a few months, this year. I was stunned that I suddenly needed 9-10hours/night. I'm now back to a more reasonable 8-9 hour ideal night. Perhaps my body needed time to repair itself when I went on the AIP diet?

I turned down a friend's offer to go to a great cocktail bar, tonight. I made some lame excuse. But I didn't really want to drink. And, you know what, I think that I'll go to bed, soon (around 2-3 hours early -- also, some @sshat scheduled a 7am meeting, this morning... and didn't show-up. Ugh.

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Ne1

Thanks for all the info, BC. We're doing the Whole30 for health rather than weight loss. (Not that I don't need to lose a significant amount of weight. But that's not the purpose of this.) Ed has long standing undiagnosable GI problems, and I am hoping for more energy, less blah, less reaction to food when I do eat. The info you linked is essentially the same as Whole30. 

I ordered the prebiotics to get a jump start. It's a month's supply, but we'll both take it. I eat a lot of dried green apples and bananas, but not green... Who knew? I wonder if I can find plaintains around here without driving 40 minutes to Whole Foods and spending another $100 for a single bag of groceries. ;) 

Rice is off the table for the Whole30. I think white potatoes are, too. I'll check. 

Decided to save some money and cancelled the order for the scoby, bought some unflavored kombucha and will start my own today. :) 

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BarrelChested
2 hours ago, Ne1 said:

Decided to save some money and cancelled the order for the scoby, bought some unflavored kombucha and will start my own today.

In some states, religious extremists force manufacturers to chemically kill/etc the microbes -- because at close to 1%ABV, they consider it to be booze. Ugh. You can't make kombucha from this.  Look for a kombucha that is "raw" and/or "live."  You want to avoid...

 

Quote

"Some companies, like Dave’s GT, have even started adding a supplement called GBI-30 to their “Enlightened” (AKA kombucha for those under 21) bottled booch. GBI-30 is a patented pro-biotic that is non-native to the Kombucha culture."

 

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